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#31 2012-02-28 16:49:14

Blueline
Member
Registered: 2008-06-25
Posts: 191

Re: Suit alleges fraud by former employee

Writer Dave Barry (of Marley and Me fame) says that   "A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person"

Scooter, JD may be a friend to you but......

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#32 2012-02-28 19:54:17

scooter
Administrator
Registered: 2007-12-19
Posts: 247

Re: Suit alleges fraud by former employee

Yes, and Pollyanna said "If you look for the bad in someone you will surely find it." (attributing it to Abe Lincoln no less! (Although there is some debate over whether or not it was Abe or Walt Disney who made the quote up.)) smile

To be clear, JD wouldn't consider me a friend at all.  I have never had a conversation with him in my life and have no knowledge of who he is on a personal level.  Luckily it seems I don't need to as you all seem to know who he is perfectly. wink

To be even clearer, I don't endorse what he's done in the least and share the same despair and frustration that much of the public feels over the incident.  There does come a point, however, when continuing to throw stones at someone who has already been tried and found guilty becomes a little ridiculous.

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#33 2012-02-28 21:18:55

bulldog
Member
Registered: 2008-03-05
Posts: 665

Re: Suit alleges fraud by former employee

"It's a misunderstanding that's going to be corrected."

"In my opinion, many of us would have done the same in his situation to protect the people he felt he had to by his actions."

When quotes like above appear on this site and a google search of J.D. Graham leads people here,  then yes people are showing concern, the virtual water cooler.   It is not a question of who is the bully, but perhaps is a question of some sort of divisions being formed.  Successful downtown business people verses less successful downtown merchants, non-downtown stratfordonians wondering what is going on?  How can a missing half of a million dollars be a misunderstanding?  Why would I do the same thing under similar circumstances? 

Now even suttle threats that if you talk about this then when we catch you doing something, we will talk about you.  Well, if indeed that happens then there is not much I can do to stop it. 
     
I am wondering though if we are witnessing different social values and ethics as people post here.  It looks like half of a million dollars is not as big of a deal to some people as it is to others.   It looks like the downtown is a bit embarrassed by this affair and would like to sweep it under the rug.  Hush Hush, this misunderstanding will go away if we keep quiet.

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#34 2012-02-28 22:24:38

rankinfile
Moderator
Registered: 2007-12-28
Posts: 843

Re: Suit alleges fraud by former employee

Well there is an argument that perhaps, just perhaps we may well have a double standard here.

It certainly has been suggested here (and I admit such comments have come from my keyboard) that it is inappropriate to slog JD as he has been pillared in the public square.

However, in the past there was little sympathy for tossing bricks at Lawrence Ryan--leaving no doubt that most consider him a jerk--jumping for joy when he failed with his numerous court cases, yet disclaiming frustration of his raking in of taxpayers $$ for his expropriated folly.

Yet with JD there is that deprived interest...be it rubbernecking at the site of the car crash, or watching NASCAR waiting for the crash to happen.

I wonder why he did it, what actually did he do, and how.   Perhaps some scribe will dig thru the court records when they are published and do a tell all report.   And there will be those who will cry to leave the poor guy alone.  Yet, don't we tend to relish in the expose report in the papers---if not to say--"well he got what he deserved".

Perhaps you could suggest this is an example of different social values or ethics.
Without knowing the "Why" I see little chance for anyone to feel sorry for him.  I doubt we are looking at the stealing of a loaf of bread....   so I am not even suggesting $.5M is a minor indiscretion.  But at the same time, with the information know publicly know, JD did (does?) have other redeeming virtues which might suggest he be given a bit of slack.........unlike Ryan.

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#35 2012-03-01 09:28:07

Steel
Member
Registered: 2008-02-16
Posts: 2521

Re: Suit alleges fraud by former employee

People have accidents. They are called accidents because they are not "purposes". In other words an accident is somethng that was unintentional and the opposite would be a purpose which is intentional.

Graham had a "purpose"...his actions were intentional. The pen didn't accidently hit the cheque book and make out a cheque to his benefit. Not only was this intentional on a single occassion they were intentionally repeatedly over a span of some 5 years.

This is or at the very least, borders on habitual behaviour.

You can park downtown and ignore the meters and collect a zillion parking tickets and do nothing about them....habitual behaviour.....there will be a consequence however....you can speed repeatedly and get caught over and over again....habitual behavour...there will be a consequence. In these cases the harm is really limited to you and so is the consequence.

You rob a bank....and get away with it and then go on and do it over and over again for 5 years .....habitual behaviour.......when you are finally caught there is a consequence. It will be public and it will not be fun.

Would you look for redeeming qualities in the bank robber? The people asking to cut him slack need to consider that if Graham had been a bank robber and after 5 years and $500,000 in thefts he had been caught...he would not be walking the streets. Graham was indeed a bank robber and a serial one at that. He robbed money continuously and intentionally for 5 years. He knew what he was doing (and one could only hope he knew it was wrong) yet continued to do it over and over again. If he had not been caught this year or the next or the next....was this to be a 6, 7 or 8 year spree?.....we can only speculate as to how long he would have continued, but the evidence certainly tilts to this continuing as long as no one caught him.

As I said in an earlier post I am at a loss as to what I would say to the guy if I met him........... "everything will be ok".....just doesn't cut it.

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#36 2012-03-01 16:13:30

Stratfordian
Member
Registered: 2011-11-11
Posts: 127

Re: Suit alleges fraud by former employee

Cougs wrote:

Don't hold your breath.

I'm still holding my breath.

How are you doing?

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#37 2012-03-01 18:37:24

scooter
Administrator
Registered: 2007-12-19
Posts: 247

Re: Suit alleges fraud by former employee

Steel wrote:

Would you look for redeeming qualities in the bank robber?

I actually think that I would.  I believe your comparison is absolutely spot on...and the same desperate stupidity that causes people to rob banks could also be an impetus for others to do similar things.  Granted, it's not what *all* of us would do in similar situations but for some in those desperate situations, it seems like its something they have to do to get "out" of their situation (yes, it's absolutely a wrong train of thought on their part).

Anyway, do they deserve sympathy for their actions?  Of course not.  But if a bank robber serves out his sentence and learns from his mistake (which, granted may or may not be the case here), should he continue to be harrassed over his or her history?  If so, until when?

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#38 2012-03-01 18:38:47

mr.nelson
Member
Registered: 2008-02-06
Posts: 416

Re: Suit alleges fraud by former employee

Fraud losses often don't get paid back


By DONAL O'CONNOR STAFF REPORTER

Posted 5 hours ago


Based on a Superior Court judgment handed down Feb. 23, Community Futures Development Corp. of Perth County stands to recoup about $760,000 from the Stratford businessperson who defrauded the taxpayer- funded company, but the question now is how much of this public money will materialize.

Under the law, a number of steps may be taken to enforce the court's judgment, but the responsibility for enforcement depends to a large extent on the creditor's determination to settle the score. Efforts aimed at recompense may include investigation of the debtor's assets, seizure and sale of the debtor's real estate and personal property and garnishment of wages.

The means a debtor may have to satisfy the court order also comes into play.

"We intend to pursue this to the full extent of the law and our ability and we'll see wherever it takes us," said Community Futures general manager Nigel Howard in response to a query from The Beacon Herald about the company's chances of recovering the missing funds.

As reported in The Beacon Herald Feb. 24, the court judgment in the Community Futures civil case named J.D. Graham, a former loans manager with the company, as debtor. Graham has more recently been a co-owner of the P'Lovers store in Stratford.

The broad range of circumstances that may be involved in this or similar cases makes it impossible to predict the outcome in terms of actual recovery of funds, but law professor Allan Hutchinson of Osgoode Hall Law School at York University said in an interview that in general there's a reasonably good chance of recompense.

Hutchinson noted wages can be garnished and liens put on personal property and the process can go on for a long time. But he pointed out as well that much depends on whether a person's property is in his own name, whether in a joint name or transferred to a partner.

One challenge is isolating access to particular monies lost in a fraud.

"In general they (Community Futures) are in the same position as any other creditor. The court has a lot of devices available, but they only work if the person has got the assets."

Hutchinson noted that sometimes people sue even though they might not get all the money back to send the message: "We don't tolerate fraud."

There probably are statistics on the degree of success in similar cases, but interpretation is difficult, he said.


"Remember, most cases get settled and that means people don't pay the full amount. They make some deals and compromise."

Although he declined to comment on the specifics of this case, Hutchinson said there probably would have been some deal arrived at about how the debtor intends to pay back what's owing. There are costs involved in the recovery process as well, but Hutchinson said that too is a responsibility of the debtor.

"Because if they put people through a lot of trouble then they have to pay for that cost as well."

The defendant would have likely already signed off on a sworn and registered document listing his assets, he said.

"Rightly or wrongly they don't put people out on the street. And I think one of the things the court would recognize here is that the winners in this case are not people. It's not as though their lives have been ruined."

"Even though the money should be paid back, this organization is still going to continue, the development corporation. And they can, after all, set this off as a business loss."

Hutchinson is associate vice-president and dean of graduate studies at Osgoode Hall Law School.

doconnor@bowesnet.com


You Can't Fix Stupid!

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#39 2012-03-02 00:00:28

bulldog
Member
Registered: 2008-03-05
Posts: 665

Re: Suit alleges fraud by former employee

"should he continue to be harrassed over his or her history?"

Scooter makes the above observation which leads to me thinking; is it harrassment for the news to report on the subject or subjects involved in misappropriated funds?  Is it harrassment for a website discussion forum to talk about it? 

No it is not but some feel that it is because they know him or there is another story behind this story that would bring other people into it.   Is this embarrassing to the downtown? 

from a previous post, It sounds like this community futures organization walked up and down the city core giving out low interest loans and grants to some but not others.   there may be some other smoking guns out there.  If this is tax money then the public needs to know what the heck is going on.

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#40 2012-03-02 06:43:34

scooter
Administrator
Registered: 2007-12-19
Posts: 247

Re: Suit alleges fraud by former employee

Great point bulldog.  I don't think news or much of the discussion on here is harassment.  But there are a few posts that are riddled with personal bias in a negative way.  The friends of JD have at least stated such but the others leave a lot to speculation about the capacity in which they seem to have so much insight into Jd's character.  Maybe there is indeed some shared blame for those relationships failing though.

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#41 2012-03-02 09:18:27

Stratfordian
Member
Registered: 2011-11-11
Posts: 127

Re: Suit alleges fraud by former employee

bulldog wrote:

"should he continue to be harrassed over his or her history?"

Scooter makes the above observation which leads to me thinking; is it harrassment for the news to report on the subject or subjects involved in misappropriated funds?  Is it harrassment for a website discussion forum to talk about it? 

No it is not but some feel that it is because they know him or there is another story behind this story that would bring other people into it.   Is this embarrassing to the downtown? 

from a previous post, It sounds like this community futures organization walked up and down the city core giving out low interest loans and grants to some but not others.   there may be some other smoking guns out there.  If this is tax money then the public needs to know what the heck is going on.

Probably why one of my posts was deleted - Scooter and others know JD therefore he is purer than the driven snow and must not face the same mudslinging that seems perfectly okay against Lawrence Ryan, mudslinging that literally fills this site, who, last I checked, hadn't committed a criminal offence.

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#42 2012-03-02 09:22:15

Stratfordian
Member
Registered: 2011-11-11
Posts: 127

Re: Suit alleges fraud by former employee

scooter wrote:

As a side note, JD is not some pie in the sky celebrity who will never read what is written about him.  He is a member of our community and is an avid reader of these forums.  You should consider anything written in the context that it will very likely be read by him directly.

Does Larry Ryan not possibly come here to read too?  His friends and family? What about the attacks on him?  Where were your crocodile tears for the mudslinging against him?  Has not he turned from bully to victim?

The stench of hypocrisy is overpowering.

I guess this will be deleted too.

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#43 2012-03-02 10:06:05

scooter
Administrator
Registered: 2007-12-19
Posts: 247

Re: Suit alleges fraud by former employee

Stratfordian wrote:

Probably why one of my posts was deleted - Scooter and others know JD therefore he is purer than the driven snow and must not face the same mudslinging that seems perfectly okay against Lawrence Ryan, mudslinging that literally fills this site, who, last I checked, hadn't committed a criminal offence.

Hi Stratfordian,

Your post was deleted only because I thought it was possible that others would not understand your satire and actually credit a quote to someone who did not in fact say any of those things.  That is all.

As stated, I do not know JD.  Also, I have deleted *plenty* of attacks on Lawrence Ryan as well (and have, in fact, supported him in much the same way against the mud slinging of others).  Please see posts #21 and #86 of this thread for some examples.

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#44 2012-03-02 10:11:02

rankinfile
Moderator
Registered: 2007-12-28
Posts: 843

Re: Suit alleges fraud by former employee

bulldog wrote:

"should he continue to be harassed over his or her history?"

Scooter makes the above observation which leads to me thinking; is it harassment for the news to report on the subject or subjects involved in misappropriated funds?  Is it harassment for a website discussion forum to talk about it? 

No it is not but some feel that it is because they know him or there is another story behind this story that would bring other people into it.   Is this embarrassing to the downtown? 

from a previous post, It sounds like this community futures organization walked up and down the city core giving out low interest loans and grants to some but not others.   there may be some other smoking guns out there.  If this is tax money then the public needs to know what the heck is going on.

Interesting comments Bulldog.  It got me wondering more about this lending institution and the "public funds" involved and how could such an institution give the keys to one individual and thus express surprise.

Turns out there is plenty on information available on line.  The Community Futures Development Corp. of Perth County is one of 61 similar institutions supported by your Harper government with your federal taxes.  Did JD have total "control" over granting funds??  I think not--looks like there was a Lending Committee who approved loan applications.  And from the look of the applications and process---and knowing that any federal organization must be controlled from the top down----I can't see how there would not have been two signing officers involved in writing cheques.   (although the process of signing a bunch of blank cheques by one individual is not unknown in these situations--I've done it!!!)  Banking institutions and government agencies are sticklers for "process", checks and balances.

So this "issue" could not have been just a simple situation of oops, I forgot to get that approval....this must have needed some significant planning to skim some $540M from the system.

You may well be correct---there may well be others involved.....

Makes he wonder more....How, Why.... could it have been done.  Are others being protected, as has been suggested here by his friends.

I suspect we will hear more....unless those others involved have enough "power" to stifle the press from further investigation.

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#45 2012-03-02 15:27:52

Steel
Member
Registered: 2008-02-16
Posts: 2521

Re: Suit alleges fraud by former employee

Stratfordian wrote:

should he continue to be harrassed over his or her history?"

perfectly okay against Lawrence Ryan, mudslinging that literally fills this site, who, last I checked, hadn't committed a criminal offence.

Impared driving......

smile

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