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#1 2012-07-26 12:20:15

Blueline
Member
Registered: 2008-06-25
Posts: 191

LCBO, Convenience Stores

From the Beacon......

The citizens of Mallorytown, Ont., between Gananoque and Brockville, are not all radical carousers.

Neither are residents of Keene, south of Peterborough, or Mount Brydges, west of London. In fact, there is no evidence the 200-plus Liquor Control Board of Ontario outlets located in privately owned stores across rural Ontario have driven people to drink.

No surprise there.

Beer and wine are sold in convenience and grocery stores in several provinces and many other parts of the world where drinking is no more a problem than in Ontario.

"Agency stores" were an LCBO response to calls for a more liberal approach to alcohol sales, and their creation relieved some of the pressure to completely revamp the provincially-owned monopoly.

But the pressure hasn't gone away. Last year, Ontario's convenience store owners commissioned a poll that showed more than 60% of Ontario residents would like more convenient access to beer and wine.

On Wednesday, the Ontario Convenience Stores Association tried again, taking a 112,500-name petition to Queen's Park.

Premier Dalton McGuinty and his Liberals weren't listening.

Despite loosening some liquor laws, they cling to the notion that the government's role is to limit opportunities to buy alcohol as strictly as possible.

A 2005 report prepared for what was then a fairly new McGuinty government found Ontario had one retail wine or beer outlet for every 7,400 residents.

Every Canadian province except Nova Scotia had more and the U.S., Great Britain and Australia all had at least three times as many.

Today, according to LCBO and Beer Store figures, that number has shrunk to one outlet for every 10,500 residents.

Convenience store owners have a strong financial interest in being able to sell alcohol but that doesn't make their proposal wrong.

They already sell age-restricted products such as cigarettes so are used to checking ID and saying no to under-age customers, and the province could still limit hours for alcohol sales.

Everyone who would like to walk down the street to buy a bottle of wine can't move to Mallorytown, and shouldn't have to. The vast majority are responsible adults who deserve to be treated that way.
  _______________________________________________________________

OK...before everyone climbs on board and says its a good idea to put beer and liquour in convenience stores let acknowledge that the LCBO is an incredible cash cow for Provincial coffers.  We kill that cow we will have to come up with the shortfall by either paying more taxes individually or cutting services.  Given that most people seem to elect any official that promises to cut taxes, it would seem inconsistent to then go ahead a knock out a major tax generator. 

Lets also note that this petition is being organized by the Ontario Convenience store Association for their greater good...not ours. 

Would this be a little more convenient?...Perhaps, but not worth it if I have to pay more in taxes to address the impending shortfall.

Last edited by Blueline (2012-07-26 16:05:30)

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#2 2012-07-26 12:26:33

Stratfordian
Member
Registered: 2011-11-11
Posts: 127

Re: LCBO, Convenience Stores

Okay daddy, we promise to be good and listen to our other daddy Dalton.  Bad alcohol, BAD!

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#3 2012-07-26 12:32:27

Blueline
Member
Registered: 2008-06-25
Posts: 191

Re: LCBO, Convenience Stores

Stratfordian wrote:

Okay daddy, we promise to be good and listen to our other daddy Dalton.  Bad alcohol, BAD!

Who said alcohol was bad.  I think it's great and the more we sell at the LCBO the less taxes I have to pay elsewhere. 
I think you fell for the Kwikie Mart groups misdirection about this being a responsibility issue. It is not.

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#4 2012-07-26 12:59:20

seekerofreason
Member
Registered: 2012-04-05
Posts: 100

Re: LCBO, Convenience Stores

Not sure we can trust corner stores to enforce the age limits since they regularly don't enforce it for smokes.  Doubt they'll stop the underagers from buying booze.

Not a good idea.

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#5 2012-07-26 16:43:07

spankie
Member
Registered: 2008-01-01
Posts: 1350

Re: LCBO, Convenience Stores

Seems to work ok in Quebec.

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#6 2012-07-26 19:36:32

seekerofreason
Member
Registered: 2012-04-05
Posts: 100

Re: LCBO, Convenience Stores

Yeah, but remember, drinking is a genetic issue in french culture.  I am just concerned that every 14 year old kid will wear a burka into the corner store to get booze and the nice person, usually a kid,  won't know what to do other than sell it.  Plus, we've just eliminated thousands of part time jobs for kids since you'll have to be 19 or older to sell.  Not sure the LCBO and Beer Store doesn't work adequately for me.  But I tend to buy from the LCBO-regardless of the poor service knowing that it at least pays dividends to the Province.

Last edited by seekerofreason (2012-07-26 19:36:57)

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#7 2012-07-26 20:47:36

Stratfordian
Member
Registered: 2011-11-11
Posts: 127

Re: LCBO, Convenience Stores

Blueline wrote:

Stratfordian wrote:

Okay daddy, we promise to be good and listen to our other daddy Dalton.  Bad alcohol, BAD!

Who said alcohol was bad.  I think it's great and the more we sell at the LCBO the less taxes I have to pay elsewhere. 
I think you fell for the Kwikie Mart groups misdirection about this being a responsibility issue. It is not.

I didn't fall for anything.  Daddy Dalton thinks he knows better than the adults in this province. 

For a decade or more I've been frustrated by the paternalistic, patronizing methods by which this province treats its citizens.  We have a Crown corporation with a monopoly on liquor, a virtual monopoly on wine (wineries can have their own stores but only sell their own products) and the "Beer Store" is a government licensed cabal that is currently one hundred percent foreign owned, 49% by Inbev (I think, whoever owns Labatt these days and whoever they are they ain't Canadian), 49% by Coors (spare me the "merger" BS, it's Coors) and 2% by Saporo.

In Ottawa, I was able to boycott the Beer Store by, are you sitting down?  crossing the King Edward bridge, going to a, are you really sitting down?  an ESSO gas station, walking into the Tiger Express and, Dalton must be having kittens by now, walking into the WALK IN BEER COOLER ROOM and choosing from a great selection of beer.

And then driving across the "border" into Ontario which was quite unlawful.

I first started doing this when, wanting some beer at 10 pm one night, I arrived at the "Beer Store" to find it closing.  The ESSO was open and selling beer past midnight.

In BC I had the choice, imagine, CHOICE! of government run LCBO type stores, truly independent liquor (yes, LIQUOR as well as beer and wine) stores and winery/brewery owned stores.  No rampant drunkenness, no over the top drunk driving, just ordinary adults making choices.

With prices below those in Ontario.

If you seriously think the only thing keeping Ontario taxes low (or lower than they would be) are LCBO profits you deserve the government you have.

What a silly argument.  Do you think the beer and wine sold in stores would be tax/duty free?  Of course not!  The profits (extorted from us as we have no other choice) from the LCBO do not sustain any government program.  Any losses (and no one is arguing here the LCBO should be sold or disbanded) would be offset by taxes on alcohol sold in other stores and taxable profits from those stores.

And for the record, if the profit motive of the stores is bad, why is okay for the government?  Why is the state in the business of selling anything for that matter?  I want a government to pass and enforce laws, build and maintain roads, provide schools and hospitals and little else.

Where I buy my consumer goods is none of the state's damned business.  Ontario has some of the most backwards liquor laws in the western world.

Please, enlighten me - what does Dolton McNumpty know that the rest of the world doesn't?

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#8 2012-07-27 00:00:06

bulldog
Member
Registered: 2008-03-05
Posts: 665

Re: LCBO, Convenience Stores

hey kids,,,,i went to michigan a couple weeks ago and bought five 24's of cans of labatts blue for fifteen bucks.    i declared it at the border and paid around 10 bucks in duty and hst,,this brings it to 25 bucks a case which is still 15 bucks cheaper than the brewers retail......so who is ripping us off????

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#9 2012-07-27 08:02:10

Miss Manners
Member
From: Here
Registered: 2012-05-24
Posts: 33

Re: LCBO, Convenience Stores

There are far more important issues facing Ontario than the  beer and wine in convenience store issue, but it seems to be an issue that hasn't gone away.
The LCBO is a profitable crown corporation that could be even more profitable if it actually wielded it's weight to secure lucrative pricing with suppliers. Instead maximizing profits, the LCBO actually rewards some suppliers with higher wholesale prices.
This issue has been on the backburner for the last 20 years and shouldn't be dealt with at the polls but seems to be near and dear to voters.
Could this be the next push poll issue ?
Bizarre and only in Ontario.


" Plough in the dynamical plane, and harvest in parameter space."

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#10 2012-07-27 23:26:35

bulldog
Member
Registered: 2008-03-05
Posts: 665

Re: LCBO, Convenience Stores

the LCBO is a cashcow for the province in two ways,,,,,profit from selling alcohol at high prices  or profit by selling the LCBO to a private business with the protection of being the only establishments to sell alcohol.....   what ever the province does they will want a cut of the profit................

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#11 2012-07-28 02:58:21

spankie
Member
Registered: 2008-01-01
Posts: 1350

Re: LCBO, Convenience Stores

If I remember correctly corner stores in Quebec can only sell wine and cider but no hard liquor.

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#12 2012-07-30 13:18:51

Steel
Member
Registered: 2008-02-16
Posts: 2521

Re: LCBO, Convenience Stores

All of the LCBO is a cash cow non-sense is just that...non-sense. The money the province makes on a bottle of booze comes from the outrageous taxes charged on the booze itself. Whether it is sold in the LCBO or at Sobey's that tax is still collected.

When Alberta moved to private booze distribution a few years ago there were a little more than 800 government run outlets in the province...now there are more than 1,800.....government revenues?.....up $247,000,000 since before privatization.

The beer store is privately run and in fact is foreign owned...they seem to be able to sell alcohol just fine. There are more than 400 wine outlets in grocery stores run by private wineries and they seem to work pretty good. As mentioned there are more than 200 "outlet" stores privately run on behalf of the LCBO throughout Ontario.....

Fact is just about any arguement against privatization this is pretty lame.

We have a huge wine industry, large craft and domestic beer industry and craft distillers now, all right here in Onatrio. Yet the LCBO is constantly criticized as being very difficult to work with, expensive for distribution and generally a pain in the butt. Go into a large brocery store in California and you will see an entire asile with nothing but California wine....here a few shelves of the LCBO. Government is constantly babbling on about supporting local industry and jobs and so on...yet when an obvious choice to increase awarness and availability of an Ontario made product....they ignore it. 150 wineries in Ontario and most of no other distrubution network than the tasting room at their own winery. That is frankly...a shame.

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#13 2012-07-30 18:15:00

Miss Manners
Member
From: Here
Registered: 2012-05-24
Posts: 33

Re: LCBO, Convenience Stores

Steel, if your post was on Facebook, I would definitely "like".
So should this be pushed as an issue in the next election or are we just blowing hot air ?


" Plough in the dynamical plane, and harvest in parameter space."

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#14 2012-07-30 19:16:34

Blueline
Member
Registered: 2008-06-25
Posts: 191

Re: LCBO, Convenience Stores

Steel wrote:

All of the LCBO is a cash cow non-sense is just that...non-sense. The money the province makes on a bottle of booze comes from the outrageous taxes charged on the booze itself. Whether it is sold in the LCBO or at Sobey's that tax is still collected.

So if the corner store sold a bottle of wine for the same price that it currently is being sold at LCBO, you are saying that the money made is all taxes therefore we would collect money the same in both cases.  By this logic the corner store would  make nothing in profit so why would they bother selling something for no money.  Steel your logic doesn't add up. You forgot the profit part that makes up any successful business
Last year the LCBO made a PROFIT of 1.63 Billion and that is excluding the taxes. In the last ten years their profit was 12.9 Billion and again that does not include the taxes generated on top of this.
That is alot of money that would have to come from somewhere else.

Last edited by Blueline (2012-07-30 21:38:25)

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#15 2012-07-30 21:43:08

rankinfile
Moderator
Registered: 2007-12-28
Posts: 843

Re: LCBO, Convenience Stores

If the LCBO is making a PROFIT over and above the cost of goods, the paying of wages to staff, rent on buildings, as well as collecting tax to be remitted to the province, why on earth could the local corner store also not do the same???

They would collect the same nasty tax to remit to the province, sure.   And they would have to buy the bottles---perhaps at a cost similar to the LCBO, perhaps slightly higher if they can't buy in bulk, or perhaps take advantage of sales from suppliers which it seems the LCBO avoids.   And then there is the "mark up" which constitutes "profit" as well as overhead.  (helps with the employment in the corner store market).

The government argument must be the VALUE of the "taxes collected" which would remain the same assuming similar sales volumes unless sales across the board increases, so would tax revenue-----but there would be less PROFIT earned by the LCBO.  Does the LCBO remit ALL its profit to the Ontario government?   I suspect not.   The brown bottle stores are I believe privately owned, so their net income (beyond the booze tax remitted to the province), is theirs to keep.  A prime reason for these robber barons to lobby against splitting the monopoly.

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